Join me today as fellow Social Media OG Chris Brogan and I go toe to toe, talking old school, (think when Netscape was the dominant browser) and trying to figure out how the hell we got here.

“..thank goodness the world invented content marketing because that’s the only one I know how to do. If it was interpretive dance market, if Tik Tok came first, I wouldn’t be Chris Brogan”

– Chris Brogan


June 30. Now we’re hot. Hey guys, Peter Shankman 20 minutes and lockdown for another day in New York city. I don’t even know what day it is. It’s some day on the week I think, and it just stopped ringing and, uh, it’s just going to continue on. And I just, I just heard Dr. Fauci say he could see a 100,000 new cases a day come August, cause you know, Hey right, we don’t need to wear a mask because of freedoms. But you know what, for the next 20 minutes, we’re going to forget all that. We’re going to forget that we’re in the middle of the pandemic. Forget that the world is run by racists. We’re going to go back in time, go back in time to the good old days and we’re going to do that with my good friend, Christopher Brogan, Chris, it is so good to see you!

Peter. It is so much better to go back in time than to think of a hundred thousand cases a day. So I’m good, man.

Amen, can you imagine, like if Marty and Doc had just gone five more years into the future, they’d be the middle of this shit, but here it is. It is awesome to see you. And we are going to talk about the past and talk about some of the stuff that we drove was with we’re roughly the same age. And, and, um, I remember finding, I remember probably eight or nine years ago, uh, seeing you in a choose your own adventure book that I was, that I saw it in my parents storage unit that for some reason they, they, they kept, um, but you know, you and I are pretty much the same age and we pretty much grew up with computers the same way. Right. And we both sort of, sort of figured out a way to make a living doing that shit that we love that our parents probably thought was crazy that our friends thought was crazy. You know, but I, I remember what was the first computer you had?

My first computer that was actually mine and not a family device was the first Macintosh in 1984. The SE the?. Just the original Macintosh Mac Mac. Yeah, the first ever one that back then guy Kawasaki was their chief evangelist wandering around in 1983 talking about how this thing is going to blow your mind. And to me it did, it was, it was amazing.

We had an Apple in the family. We had an Apple two E. It was the first one. And then we got a 2GS and the TGS was so much more powerful. Right. And that was, that was the first time I got a modem. I had a 300 baud modem and I could dial up two bulletin boards, were you on a bulletin board, as you run water, you run one. I feel like you ran one.

No, uh, because I was just that lazy. I was. Just that lazy, like I could almost make you work. And then I was like, eh, it’s too much. So I just dialed in, they were like seven around my house, around high school age.

I remember my parents got me a subscription to, I don’t remember the magazine. It was a kid’s kid’s computer magazine and it had to be like an Apple magazine. But all I remember was that it had. You can send in your own programs that you designed and they would print them and then you could, when you were reading it, you could copy it. And I sent it like a dozen. I never got anything published, but I’d always copy the ones that they put in the back of the magazine, just to see if I can make it work. And I remember, I, I want to go to college. I got a Macintosh SE and this, this will mess with the kids listening. It was state of the art at one megabyte of Ram that I upgraded to four. And a 20 megabyte hard drive and it was the shit, it was the shit. Right. And I remember being frustrated being even with that.

Can you just think about those numbers? I mean, I, every, this is, this is when you feel old is when you fling by Amazon and you look and see that one terabyte on a stick is like less than a hundred bucks.

And you remember we landed on the moon with about one 10th of the power of this thing. And that just, I mean, that just blows me away. It continually, you know, we can land a seven 47 having on fifth Avenue with our phone today and, and, and, and yet we use it to like, get into fights with people whose minds were never going to change. That’s what I love about it, but I remember here’s a bit of trivia. Do you remember that, that the naming composition for, for Macintosh was the SE. Any Mac they had that had a 6,830 processor was designated with an X. Right. And the only one that wasn’t was the SE30, because someone in marketing said, it’s probably not a good idea to call the Mac “the SEX”

Smart. I did not remember that little detail, but that’s a smart detail.

Were you, so when you were in school, were you like the computer geek? Were you like the guy who?

Uh, no, I was not sorry. I’m trying to set my phone to vibrate cause they didn’t realize it was not. Uh, no, I was not a computer geek. I um, and I got to this from a strange place. Like I loved, uh, video games a lot. So when I was, you know, when you talked about working out of a magazine, my buddy Mike Shedd and I would go over to his house, he had a Commodore 64 and we would type games because that’s how you can play a game it’s type, every single line of code, compile it and run it. Exactly that. And so, so we would, we would do that. So I was always more like a, a, um, computer culture guy. Do you know what I mean? Like I never wanted to code. I never could have cared about code. I’m not smart enough to code my 14 and a half year old is an incredible coder, but me, uh, I was a social geek, so I, you know, I’m such an introvert.

And when I got into bulletin board services back in the day, I always tell people it was like Twitter, except that everyone had to type what they were mad about and then hang up and wait until you come back 30 minutes, something back to you. Exactly. The Wrath of Khan is a really good movie. You stupid donkey head and then you hang up and you have to wait for them to type back. No, it’s not. It’s really dumb. You take it back! No, you’re dumb. And it would take forever. I mean, my joke was that, you know, all kids are going up so fast these days because they have access to internet porn, but man, Oh man, ASCII porn back in the day, I would be like open and close parentheses for days; It could be a nipple. You know, that’s what I, that’s what I started with for me.

Fast forward a few years, I remember downloading from not the bulletin boards from the, what were they called? The, um, Oh, you got all thought whatever, and you download like eight different files and it would take all night and you’d wake up in the morning and the seventh one would have one corrupted bit of code and he whole thing was useless. Yeah. Like it was yesterday then.

You know, that was the big argument for Napster was like, everyone’s like, it’s going to ruin the world. And I was like, no, do you know how many times has it been Rick rolled on Napster? You know how many times I saw it, I was getting like a new metallic alive bootleg. And I really got like, you know, uh, lingo Boingo or something.

Someone, some comedian said that that kids today will never understand what it was like to have to go on a Napster and give your computer AIDS, just to get the latest. Negative video or whatever it was.

And it’s so true. Really true. I mean, you know, you’d have to explain to your parents, I don’t know how I got a virus, but it wasn’t porn. It was music.

I remember. Um, you know, it’s funny and, and this is another bit of trivia that you probably didn’t know when I ran my PR firm, when I ran the geek factory back in 98, one of our first clients was Napster. I reached out to them and I said, Hey, you know, how can we help? We love what you’re doing. They said, Oh, we’re getting our asses kicked in colleges. Cause all the universities are threatened to eliminate access to us because using so much bandwidth. Oh man. So I started the campaign for them. We did a Goodwill campaign where we donated access, donated bandwidth to the universities and made us friends, all universities. Then of course, a couple years later, no, everyone, everyone, you know, they had to shut down. But yeah, I met Shawn Fanning and the, and the, and the whole thing. It was. Has amazing times back then eight 98. This was now when you, when you started, I read somewhere or you told me your first mega client, when you went out on your own and, and, and decided to become the, the, the knowledge of all things social, your first client was, am I right when I say it was Sears?

No. So I did a project for Kmart. If that’s what you’re thinking about?

But I remember you had one major client, like when you first started out, like you had some huge clients, like. And cause basically you just went in and you knew that they didn’t know anything. And you said, Hey, I know slightly more than you and we should do that.

It’s more embarrassing and weird than that. And um, so here’s what I did. I set up a website and I called a new marketing labs. I was, I had a couple of business partners that were doing a totally other venture. And I made this kind of like my little project on the side of it. And I said, we serve fortune 100 companies. Now when I said that. I honestly didn’t really get what I was saying. I was sort of saying, this is a, this is a hallmark of all of Chris Brogan’s career, by the way, every single part of it, I slip into a room and go, Hey guys! And they were like, you’re in the wrong room. And then they don’t make me leave. So, um, I said, I serve fortune 100 clients I met. Like, they would be good to work with. And so, um, Kmart was like a different beast. That was a Ted Murphy from Isaiah says, Hey, want to do this cool sponsored project with Kmart? And I said, yeah, sure. And I went, and I did, like he said, I’m going to give you some money for shopping and you’re going to shop and you’re just gonna report on the experience. And you just have to divulge that, how this went down. And I said, yeah, I’m in. So I wrote sponsored posts. Dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. I got written up in every, uh, magazine at the time, like Ad Age, Ad Week, all those things, Chris, Brogan’s the devil. He sold his soul. Cause he’s blogging for money. Now everyone has sponsored posts. It’s like how they exist as a company. But back then, what an ass. All I did was I went to Kmart. I didn’t say very nice things about it either. I was like, wow, this is a little weird. But what I also did was I said to my kids, you know, why don’t we do this? Why don’t we buy? It was around Christmas time. Why don’t we buy toys for kids? Right. You know, cause there’s all those like, you know, toys for tots programs, they said, so let’s buy all this stuff, but let’s be aware that we’re not taking any of it home. We’re going to give it to kids. So I thought, you know, that’s a good way to make it sort of cause and whatever. So again, I was the devil, what an ass blah, blah, blah. So I did that, my first big clients of my own. I just said, you know, I work with fortune 100. So they were. Uh, Titlest, it was, um, Scott’s miracle grow and all that Comcast and, and, and single case, all of them, they were just like, yeah, we’d love to get some ideas. All it really was is a lot of talking directly to big companies and kind of giving them a few steps in a direction and say, maybe let’s try this, or maybe this would be good, or, you know, Coke had me down and said, why don’t we do this sort of thing? And then. Inter sport interspersed. And there were real projects like Sony Summer of Dads with Sony electronics, USA, Pepsi. I did, I was kind of a dad project with bond and bow when Bond worked there. And, um, I had a lot of opportunity to work those, but then suddenly like, you know, your logo slide that you gotta use to brag to show people that they should hire you. Mine was full of all the best names. It was just cause there’s a stupid idiot. And then the first time I ever worked with the fortune 500, it was because I didn’t even know. That that was a barrier and Maxine Clark who ran builder bear said, well, would you ever work with fortune 500? And I was like, Oh yeah, like, I don’t even know Peter.

No, I only take on the hundreds haha!

No, I didn’t know. Like, I should have been trying to talk to like, you know, oil, barons and stuff.

Well, it happens. I mean, I remember, I remember when I got my first son, my first job at a school was America online and I wound up helping to launch the newsroom at AOL. It was one of the first three founding editors available news and had not a clue. I got the job because I was hanging out in the Melrose place. TV, gossip chat room on AOL- are they on somebody in that shops and the companies trying to build the news? Yeah. From you have a journalism degree from Boston university, SIM peer resonance. I said, sure, I’ll be great. I have no experiences to be perfect. And two weeks later was being, was moving down to Virginia and being hired to work for AOL. And you know, that was the I ever learned. Um, you know, have faith and faith will be given to you or, you know, fake it till you make it right. I had no idea what I was doing, but I went in every day and the three of us, none of us had the idea, this was, this was, yeah. Online news didn’t exist. We made it right. And we, we started with, um, if it works, we’ll do something and if it works, we’ll do it again. And if it doesn’t work, we won’t do it again. And that’s how we built it. And we, you know, back then it was still $2.95 an hour- kids today who have no idea that it used to cost money per hour to be on the internet. And it was like 25 an hour. And our goal was simple. Keep our members online as long as possible. And. So we would come up with stories. We tell stories, we we’d make news packages. We’d make these ridiculous video packages that would take hours for people to download on our modems, but it was an amazing experience. And I remember leaving AOL, I’m thinking, okay. Somehow. Yeah. You managed to bullshit your way into that. Let’s see. What’s next. Right. And I think that it’s funny. I think that you and I have talked about imposter syndrome in the past. I think success breeds it. Right. Success continues to breed and positive syndrome because the more you do great things when they ran and you’re like, what’s the next thing? You’re like, well, there’s no way I could ever do something as good as that. Again. Right. And so you’re constantly thinking about it, but it’s, it’s, it’s improv. It’s constantly improv.

It is, and you know, a million years ago. So my parents, uh, I give them credit for as many things as I could think, to give them credit for it. They were also voracious readers. There were so many books in my house. I learned to my love of reading. Partly through them, partly through my gramps taking me around and buy me comic books. He was a candy salesman. So we’d get comments. Cool. Candy. Hi, what, who has the coolest Gramps in the world? He’s just curious, has that, that’s amazing. You know, this is before that, like an old man selling you, candy seemed creepy. This was back in the old days where they would let like strangers get in the car with him. Charlene chocolate factory candy. Right. Were kids, neighbor, kids always hanging out with my grandfather. So, you know, he was a nice guy. So, um, so reading. So my parents, my dad tells me about this book, Peter principle. Like when I’m at like 12 or something and talking to Peter Shankman, the Peter principle is you will rise to the level of incompetency, This level of, of, of media may get incompetent or whatever.

Nope. This is what happens after that. Each worker arrives at his or her highest level of incompetence, but then they won’t be demoted. And then be promoted. They will sit there and cause the backlog and the backend, the Peter principle that it means so much because that’s how, that’s how shit goes wrong. Because now everyone in middle management who can’t do fuck all.

When you can’t do it, get promoted. Right. So, and that’s something, you know, I think that in my case, absolutely through folly and mistakes, I am always at the front line again, I’m always at the front line, you know, some of our marketing and business colleagues, you know, kind of pontificate about marketing, but they’ve given it up for lent, you know, but what I can say is that, um, you know, Hey Ratesh, sorry. Um, I, you know, a lot of them gave it up for lent the idea that they have to market, but I think I will die trying to market. You know, I was never a marketer. That’s the other funny thing, right? Like I was an idiot. I just like people. And so I’d wander around and go, you know, if you told stuff in an interesting way, people would like it and thank goodness the world invented content marketing because that’s the only one I know how to do. If it was interpretive dance market, if Tik Tok came first, I wouldn’t be Chris Brogan.

So I just deleted Tic Tok because I’m really a little scared about what, what that app can do on my phone

Plus you’re over 40 good, good plan.

But, you know, it’s, it’s interesting because I, I. Believe so often that you and I share the same brain. Um, like we, we literally, I have, I think one of our, one of our parents cheated on the other, either yours or mine with each other and we’re probably related, um, you know, we should never date, but I think that it’s, it’s, it’s fascinating because our message, right- we’ve both done. We both made names for ourselves, right. You know, for whatever that’s worth, but our message has never been rocket science. Our message has simply been, do shit. Do good shit slightly better than everyone else, tell a good story. Right. And to this day, it is still mind blowing. How many companies don’t get it, you know, do you remember I wrote that blog post, all social media experts need to go die in a fire. And I got, I got a world of shit for it, right. It’s a little bit. Yeah, but the premise was solid. I mean a social media marketing expert. I need a marketing expert. I need someone who can tell a good story and compare that. To everything. And T Tyler, Tyler Jorgenson, who’s in, who’s in shank mind says I’m glad that both of you agreed. We shouldn’t date. Yes.

There could be, there could be sparks Tyler. Hey, I’m just, you know, I’m up for it. I’m up for it. All I can think of is that Peter and I dated, we would never, ever finish a sentence. You don’t even need a period around or we’d never see anyone else.

We’d never go and have dinner with friends or whatever. It’d just be three years later. Yeah. Somewhere on the earth. It’s just like make a scifi bad movie. I’m pretty sure.

Tell me. If you had to say in a nutshell or in one sentence, what has, what have computers done for Chris Brogan? Right. I know that’s a weird question, but, but I think you get what I’m trying to say.

Absolutely. So, so this is, you know, my, you know, origin story was, I tried really hard to get bitten by radioactive spiders. I was kind of afraid of spiders though. So it made it a little harder cause I’d slap them before they bit me. Um, and I also tried to be born from a different planet, but it turns out you can only be born the one time. And I was born in Maine, which feels like a different planet, but her name by the way I was born, my mom just got mad at me about this yet. Not mad. She asked me a question. She goes, do you remember where you were born? And I’m like, how does anyone not remember? They’re stupid. I was born in Waterville, Maine. Never lived there. I was visiting my aunt Belle inside my mom. I didn’t get a vote, I would have stayed home, but, uh, Augusta Maine was where I was from. So my first place in the world was the capital city of Augusta Maine, which is notorious for being the least interesting part of my visit. It’s all medical stuff and government stuff. Two things no one’s anxious to go visit. Sure. It’s the house of bar Harbor for several years during the summer, my first bald Eagle in the wild there, uh, there’s a really great bar. Have a brewery. I, uh, got very drunk on blueberry beer, uh, with the beer. Beer Meister because he, um, brew Meister. He loved the idea that he’d made this cool blueberry beer and, uh, nobody else seemed to want to taste it. I did. He kept refilling my glass. He’s a brewmeister and I’m not. And by the end of this tour that he gave yet his arm around me, the whole time refilling my drink. By the end of the tour, he gave me, he whacked me on the back to like, say, Hey, see you later, man. And I don’t know, he knew it cause he turned around and shut the door. I fell into the hedges right in front of Bar Harbor Brewery. And I came out the other side, I’ll cover it up and scratches, but didn’t really, it was a really long walk back to my hotel.

So that’s.. what have computer’s done for Chris?

Thank you. Thank you, Peter. I was born and raised in Augusta Maine. And when I first started getting into bulletin board services in that there were only three discussions you could have in Augusta, Maine- Van Halen or Led Zepplin. And the answer was Van Halen, a Mustang or Camaro. I was a Camaro and would the Red Sox ever win a world series. And my answer was absolutely not, and I was proven wrong, but it still took them 86 years to do that. So I founded a bulletin board service, so I can have the most important conversations, which is why Star Trek is ultimately better than Star Wars, even though it’s more boring. Um, you know, it doesn’t matter Superman versus Hulk. Those are two, you know, other worldly things, but is Batman really helpful or not? That’s a good one, you know, and that’s what computers did. Was it allowed me to connect with people and talk about interests and passions that weren’t on TV. You know, there were decades and decades of really bad attempts at superhero movies before nowadays, where we’re all kind of like, Oh, come on another superhero. We’ll be, yeah. No one thought we’d ever get here. No one saw it. Like I was a Dungeons and dragons player. No, one’s thought we’d have so much game of Thrones that we could complain about it. You know? So what happens though, is those fandoms and you were talking, you were talking about being a Melrose place. Fans of the things that we want to be, that we want to be fans about- to me, that’s there so much vibrant energy there. And if I like, if I could find a way and I’ve, I’ve, I’ve yet to isolated that little magic. If I can find a way just to chase fandoms and really do something helpful for some companies with it to make a bag of money, I would do that because I think that there’s such a vast distance between trying to convince someone to buy a toilet versus, you know, oh: ‘You love vampire movies? Me too!!’ Y’know, and I think that’d just be so much more fun.

Well, it’s interesting because what you’re talking about in a lot of ways is, is a loyalty to a brand, right? And even if that brand is just, um, vampire movies or Star Trek or whatever, And I tell the story, often guy, you might know that name of Meyer Burlow. Meyer was the global head of sales for America online, back in the nineties. He, he and Jan Grant we’re basically responsible for the discs everywhere. Right? And so Meyer one thing about miler, he was a smoker and it did, but this was the nineties. I was a smoker too. Cause smoking smoking was healthy for you in the nineties. That’s right. You wouldn’t go outside. Uh, Two or three times a day. Right. And I would run into Meijer in the back having a cigarette. So I learned more from this guy than almost anyone in the world. I learned how to dress. I learned style. I learned all from just watching him. Right. And one day. I was having a cigarette with him and, and, uh, pulled up to the front of the building where we were. And I pulled up the AOL Logo. That was a little running man logo, remember, that little triangle running man logo? And like six people got out of the car. And one of the people handed me a camera and said, can you picture of us in front of this logo? Okay. Sure. Whatever 23, what do I know, right. I take the picture and they go, thank you. And they get back in their car in the driveway. And I go back to Meyer and go, what the fuck? What the hell was that? He was like Peter that was brand loyalty and go what’s that. And he goes, I guarantee you, those six people met in one of our chat rooms and they took their one week off from the mill or the bar or wherever they work there. One week, a year, they get off and they piled into a car. Then you go to Disney world. They came to the mothership because they wanted their picture. And I will never forget that. And I never saw that level of brand loyalty again until Peloton.

Wow. Yeah. Right.

I, back when we used to go outside before the air would kill us, I would once a week when I didn’t have my daughter, I’d go to those 5:00 AM or the 6:00 AM live classes in the studio. Right. They, they liked me. They give me passes with the live studio. I think it’s awesome. Just to be with other human beings, um, who knew and, um, I’ll be out there at five 45 waiting for the building to open and there are 50 people who are there who have just come in New York. Like they land at like nine o’clock. They’re not there to see Hamilton. It was the empire state building. They’re there to go to the mothership and take a class with their favorite instructor. Right. And this was back in 2017 when Peloton was just starting out. And I remember saying, Holy shit. I have not seen this since AOL. I need to invest in these guys. And a week after they went public, I started buying as much Peloton as they could. And then when everything went to shit outside, that turns into a really nice investment. But what they’ve been able to do. With their Brentland I run three Peloton, the groups on Facebook alone, I run an ADHD group. I run a single dads group. I run a super early workout, like a 4:00 AM workout group. Right? These people, we are religious about posting workouts, right. It combines the best of everything. Jeremiah wrote a phenomenal thing about this. I forget what he calls it. He calls it a. It’s not a whole, that’s, that’s a different terminology, but something with like five different principles that basically state you get the dopamine, you get the, the, the, the bragging rights, you get all this stuff, and that’s the th the formula, the Peloton, and that didn’t exist. Well, you know, AOL created that and then Peloton created that again. And so it’s, it’s lightening in a bottle when it does happen.

Jeremiah is like that for me. Cause one of the things that’s absolutely true in, uh, some brand stories that really stick with us is if you have a stranger negative experience with a brand, and then there’s a correction. And I read some article that Jeremiah wrote with somebody else and I didn’t like it. And I was kind of jerky about not liking it. My response was very much early days, Chris Brogan, like I’m going to poop on you and then I’m going to take the poop. And when it falls off, you’re going to pick it up and put it back on you and push it back down. And Jeremiah was so super ultra good. And he was like, I would love to really learn from this. Tell me a little bit more what you’re thinking. And I don’t even know first off I was probably wrong, by the way, I said they were bad and they were like, their idea was stupid and I was probably wrong. And Jeremiah still was like the nicest guy in the room. Yeah. And, uh, I have loved him ever since. And to me, that those brand things that happen like that, where you, you start on the bad foot or you get an early bad foot experience, sometimes that’s the most loyal you could be is if someone fixes it in a way that keeps you there forever loyalist. I did a little study on that sort of unofficial study when I wrote Zombie Loyalists And that, that, that someone who buys from your brand is actually, I think it was 1.8 times more likely if they have a problem and you fix the problem and go above and beyond, they’re more likely not only to buy from you again, but to tell friends. Right. And I have to caveat that with, I’m not saying you should deliberately screw up on a client just to get that right. But it’s, you know, we expect some, a little. Alright, last, last, last question. How is Chris Brogan? How is Chris Brogan mentally? How’s Chris Brogan, emotionally. How’s Chris Brogan, physically.

I got to tell you the funniest thing about being a guy who deals with a clinical depression and who has for years now, uh, the minute this all landed like the COVID stuff uh, the very beginning of March, I like I’ve just had a bunch of, I had a couple of pretty, not good years in a row, uh, mentally and also financially because of the mentally. And I was feeling really like March 2nd. Exactly. I was very optimistic and I just picked up someone’s um, uh, canceled speaking gig and I was like, Oh, this is it. That’s Jeremiah’s thing- the dose. It’s like, uh, so I say to myself now things are looking up and then the very next day, the world shut down. And I went, this is great. And for a hundred plus days, as people are starting to find new versions of depression, uh, people are getting suicidal, all this awful stuff, I, the most depressed guy I know I’m like. So I’m great. And I, and I can tell you why, but it doesn’t make enough sense and it’s not worth it for anybody else who doesn’t deal with depression, but it’s like I was made for this a hundred plus days. Plus I love being such an introvert that I don’t. Now I have a reason to be here. I’ve been thinking about it now.

I’ve been saying it a lot. It’s like being in, in being here, you know, I, my, I used to think how busy I was just cause the three-day speech. You know, it has to be a 45 minute speech, took a day to get there a day to give the speech data, come back 45 minute speech now takes about 46 minutes. Right. And it leaves me with a lot of free time, my daughter, a lot of free time. And so, you know, I start thinking, what else can I do? And it’s sort of a nice way to reinvent. Now that being said, I don’t want this to last forever. And if people wore a FREAKIN’ MASK, maybe it wouldn’t. But yeah. You know, the premise of, of being able to reinvent. You know, it’s something that you and I think are, have always been really, really, we learned it from a dad without question. I’m glad to hear that you’re doing well. Um, I will be respectful of your time and, and cap it at 25 minutes, but we will come back. We will do this again because I just love talking to you. It’s just so much, it’s literally like talking to a mirror. It’s so much fun. It is. Well, we even look alike. We even look alike.

Our hair grows in very similarly stupid ways.

It really, really does.

It’s not telling you, I’m telling you. We have to, we have to do a 20, 23 and me, I guarantee you we’re related! Guys, Chris Brogan.

I have one on the shelf but I’m scared of it, so keep going.

I love this guy. Thank you, Chris. It’s such a pleasure. Always. Thanks Peter.

Alright, we’ll talk again soon. Bye everyone.

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